1
00:00:04,838 --> 00:00:06,047
[woman VO] Josh, do you wanna   
     be in the middle this time?

2
00:00:06,131 --> 00:00:08,383
[Josh VO] No, I'm not       
      being in the middle ever.

3
00:00:08,466 --> 00:00:09,467
[woman VO] What?!

4
00:00:09,551 --> 00:00:10,969
[woman VO] That feels like kind   
 of a strong thing that we should

5
00:00:11,011 --> 00:00:13,888
talk about.

6
00:00:14,222 --> 00:00:15,890
Oh my God, I'm cold.

7
00:00:15,974 --> 00:00:17,392
Let's do some squats.

8
00:00:17,475 --> 00:00:20,186
-[Lorena laughs]          
     -[Aryn] I might, actually.

9
00:00:20,270 --> 00:00:22,105
This was not here the       
       other day; it's weird.

10
00:00:22,188 --> 00:00:23,064
-Which one?            
         -'The Mole People.'

11
00:00:23,148 --> 00:00:25,108
'The Mole People.'

12
00:00:25,150 --> 00:00:28,361
I wonder what it means that    
 you selected that book out of...

13
00:00:28,445 --> 00:00:29,237
any of the other books.

14
00:00:29,279 --> 00:00:31,823
Okay, what do we got here?        
      What's on the left?

15
00:00:31,906 --> 00:00:32,698
'Just...'

16
00:00:32,741 --> 00:00:33,992
'You Just Don't Understand.'

17
00:00:34,075 --> 00:00:36,745
Oh, man, do I       
          resonate with that book.

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00:00:36,786 --> 00:00:38,288
[Aryn and Josh laugh]

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00:00:38,329 --> 00:00:39,497
Lemme get that one.

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00:00:39,581 --> 00:00:40,457
-Lemme get this book.       
               -Okay.

21
00:00:40,498 --> 00:00:42,292
You guys-- you guys,             
 go onto the other ones.

22
00:00:42,333 --> 00:00:44,002
Aryn, would you          
       like 'Freud on Women,'

23
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'The Art of Happiness,'

24
00:00:46,046 --> 00:00:47,630
'The Ink Blots,'

25
00:00:47,672 --> 00:00:48,465
'Open Marriage?'

26
00:00:48,548 --> 00:00:51,426
Wow, definitely               
 'The Art of Happiness.'

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♪cool theme music♪

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00:00:59,434 --> 00:01:04,688
♪pensive ethereal music♪

29
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We had the most          
      tumultuous week we've had.

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It was, first of all, a      
      scheduling thing about me

31
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getting an        
            opportunity for a, um,

32
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circus gig, but it's, 
             like, near New York,

33
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so I get to spend   
              more time with Josh,

34
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and I assumed that Josh would 
     wanna have more time with me,

35
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'cause I'm spending, actually, 
      a lot of time in Las Vegas.

36
00:02:01,454 --> 00:02:02,997
Just so I'll       
            understand concretely,

37
00:02:03,081 --> 00:02:07,794
this would mean that you would 
     be in New York regularly more

38
00:02:07,836 --> 00:02:08,836
than you were planning to be?

39
00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,548
[Aryn] Yeah, two to            
 three days more per week.

40
00:02:11,631 --> 00:02:12,382
Got it.

41
00:02:12,465 --> 00:02:14,425
And I think it's like,          
 that's definitely exciting,

42
00:02:14,509 --> 00:02:18,179
but the conversation around     
 something that would impact me

43
00:02:18,263 --> 00:02:21,057
dramatically was never...

44
00:02:21,099 --> 00:02:22,433
-had.               
               -Mm-hm.

45
00:02:22,475 --> 00:02:26,980
The majority of the conversation 
    was focused on logistical...

46
00:02:27,021 --> 00:02:28,857
exercises and assumptions.

47
00:02:28,940 --> 00:02:32,442
Rather than asking you...

48
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how would that impact you?

49
00:02:34,112 --> 00:02:35,405
Or just like,     
               "Hey, we're a team.

50
00:02:35,446 --> 00:02:38,031
Like, let's sit down and-- this 
    would be a big impact on you.

51
00:02:38,116 --> 00:02:40,785
Like, can we just talk about the 
   ways in which this will impact

52
00:02:40,869 --> 00:02:43,371
you and if you're up for this?"

53
00:02:43,788 --> 00:02:45,582
What are you thinking, Aryn?

54
00:02:45,623 --> 00:02:50,043
I was honestly pretty             
 hurt that I, like...

55
00:02:50,420 --> 00:02:54,174
wasn't immediately    
             welcomed in our home.

56
00:02:58,011 --> 00:03:01,431
That, like, everything 
              you've ever told me

57
00:03:01,514 --> 00:03:02,056
is, like, you want 
                more time with me,

58
00:03:02,098 --> 00:03:03,892
so I was like...

59
00:03:03,975 --> 00:03:05,018
[voice wavering] It felt      
 contradictory to everything that

60
00:03:05,059 --> 00:03:08,478
you've ever asked for.

61
00:03:09,981 --> 00:03:13,109
But you're each          
      talking from your own...

62
00:03:13,151 --> 00:03:16,321
hurt or grievance.

63
00:03:16,905 --> 00:03:20,617
In a way, you're each saying,   
   "Why don't you understand what

64
00:03:20,700 --> 00:03:22,118
hurt me?"

65
00:03:22,202 --> 00:03:24,078
But you're talking              
 about different things.

66
00:03:24,162 --> 00:03:27,540
But shouldn't we be focusing our 
 energy on the beginning parts of

67
00:03:27,582 --> 00:03:28,458
the friction and argument?

68
00:03:28,499 --> 00:03:32,503
I think-- I think that's      
       one way to possibly go.

69
00:03:32,587 --> 00:03:35,798
From my experience, it doesn't   
      really [chuckling] work.

70
00:03:35,882 --> 00:03:38,509
And it doesn't                  
 matter who started.

71
00:03:38,593 --> 00:03:43,598
Mm, I just feel like it      
     does matter who started it.

72
00:03:43,890 --> 00:03:45,016
It matters if you're in court.

73
00:03:45,099 --> 00:03:46,017
I mean...

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00:03:46,100 --> 00:03:50,271
It doesn't matter if you       
 wanna just make things better.

75
00:03:50,355 --> 00:03:54,359
Oh, man, I just feel like, for   
 the person that initially causes

76
00:03:54,442 --> 00:03:55,817
the miscommunication...

77
00:03:55,860 --> 00:03:57,946
But people don't always          
 see things the same way.

78
00:03:58,029 --> 00:04:00,156
Who knows when it started?

79
00:04:00,198 --> 00:04:01,741
It could have started...

80
00:04:01,824 --> 00:04:05,286
half an hour before the         
 conversation even started.

81
00:04:05,328 --> 00:04:07,121
[sucks teeth] Oof...

82
00:04:07,205 --> 00:04:09,832
That's hard for me.

83
00:04:09,874 --> 00:04:11,584
[Orna] I understand.

84
00:04:11,626 --> 00:04:15,964
I feel like, in most of    
      the conflicts that I'm in...

85
00:04:16,589 --> 00:04:19,384
I'm the one that's more clear 
    about the emotional range that

86
00:04:19,466 --> 00:04:21,552
I'm experiencing, and    
         I get that there's, like,

87
00:04:21,636 --> 00:04:25,598
a whole bunch of reasons    
       why that isn't the case for

88
00:04:25,682 --> 00:04:27,392
women in the United States,

89
00:04:27,433 --> 00:04:29,060
-just culturally...        
           -[Orna] Mm-hm.

90
00:04:29,102 --> 00:04:29,852
Right?

91
00:04:29,936 --> 00:04:30,895
But Josh, you're getting      
       abstract, and-- and...

92
00:04:30,979 --> 00:04:33,273
-Let's stay a little closer...   
               -Okay.

93
00:04:33,314 --> 00:04:35,149
[Orna] To what                  
 actually happened.

94
00:04:35,233 --> 00:04:38,236
What do you think about this    
     -- about this conversation?

95
00:04:38,278 --> 00:04:39,112
Where are you?

96
00:04:39,195 --> 00:04:41,030
I think one of the      
        things that I, personally,

97
00:04:41,072 --> 00:04:45,368
struggle with the most    
        is that I have no point of

98
00:04:45,451 --> 00:04:48,871
real reference of what it would 
    be like to be in partnership

99
00:04:48,913 --> 00:04:50,915
with Josh if Aryn         
       was here consistently.

100
00:04:50,999 --> 00:04:55,420
And I think Josh and I's time 
    together is predicated on Aryn

101
00:04:55,503 --> 00:04:58,840
being busy, pretty much      
      up until really recently;

102
00:04:58,923 --> 00:05:01,759
when Aryn comes home,           
 I don't really see Josh,

103
00:05:01,843 --> 00:05:02,927
or our plans would, like, drop.

104
00:05:03,011 --> 00:05:06,347
And you have worked               
   really hard on...

105
00:05:06,389 --> 00:05:08,308
shifting that or              
 making things consistent.

106
00:05:08,391 --> 00:05:09,517
-Yeah!               
      -And I do appreciate it.

107
00:05:09,559 --> 00:05:10,852
And you've also been so      
       great about that, too!

108
00:05:10,935 --> 00:05:14,522
About being flexible        
       and understanding that.

109
00:05:14,564 --> 00:05:16,065
Yeah, I guess I'm               
 thinking about, like,

110
00:05:16,107 --> 00:05:16,816
a few weeks ago.

111
00:05:16,899 --> 00:05:17,567
That was really frustrating.

112
00:05:17,608 --> 00:05:20,820
We had breakfast plans at 11.

113
00:05:20,903 --> 00:05:23,823
I texted him at 10AM like,        
 "Super excited to see you,

114
00:05:23,906 --> 00:05:26,576
have breakfast, whatever."

115
00:05:26,617 --> 00:05:27,577
Don't hear anything.

116
00:05:27,660 --> 00:05:30,246
You call back and it's like 10   
 minutes before we're supposed to

117
00:05:30,288 --> 00:05:33,124
hang out, and you're      
       like, "Oh, yeah, no, I'm...

118
00:05:33,166 --> 00:05:35,084
I'm gonna have                   
 coffee with Aryn,

119
00:05:35,168 --> 00:05:37,628
so I'm not gonna be               
   able to be there.

120
00:05:37,670 --> 00:05:38,629
I'm gonna leave                
 here in 15 minutes,"

121
00:05:38,671 --> 00:05:41,299
so that means you're gonna        
 show up 30 minutes after we

122
00:05:41,382 --> 00:05:43,134
discussed.

123
00:05:43,217 --> 00:05:46,804
And so that, like-- that        
 kind of stuff really eats me,

124
00:05:46,888 --> 00:05:49,974
'cause I'm like, "What does      
 this mean if Aryn moves home?

125
00:05:50,016 --> 00:05:51,893
Like, does that mean...

126
00:05:51,933 --> 00:05:53,811
I really am just, like...

127
00:05:53,895 --> 00:05:54,687
secondary?

128
00:05:54,729 --> 00:05:57,690
And if so, I really wanna     
 know that so I can orient myself

129
00:05:57,774 --> 00:06:01,944
appropriately, 'cause I'm         
 pouring a lot into this."

130
00:06:02,028 --> 00:06:03,988
What are you...

131
00:06:04,030 --> 00:06:05,114
feeling?

132
00:06:05,156 --> 00:06:07,950
In those moments, I can totally 
    understand and empathize how,

133
00:06:07,992 --> 00:06:11,120
all of a sudden, having the    
   time being slightly shifted --

134
00:06:11,162 --> 00:06:13,373
even if it's a           
       small amount of time --

135
00:06:13,414 --> 00:06:18,503
can be emotionally hard to     
      experience and confusing.

136
00:06:18,544 --> 00:06:21,547
Do you get that it's less       
 about the time thing, though?

137
00:06:21,631 --> 00:06:23,925
Yeah, it's more about       
      the larger part of it...

138
00:06:24,008 --> 00:06:24,926
What's the larger part?

139
00:06:25,009 --> 00:06:27,011
Which is the feeling the      
   secondary -- that your time is

140
00:06:27,053 --> 00:06:28,096
not respected as          
        much as Aryn's time,

141
00:06:28,137 --> 00:06:30,723
and that it can just        
         be moved around...

142
00:06:30,765 --> 00:06:31,391
-Yeah.               
            -With, like,

143
00:06:31,432 --> 00:06:33,017
little consent to you.

144
00:06:33,058 --> 00:06:33,518
N-- no consent.

145
00:06:33,601 --> 00:06:35,520
-Yeah.               
               -Yeah.

146
00:06:35,603 --> 00:06:39,107
Lorena, do you know that    
       Josh suggested changing our

147
00:06:39,190 --> 00:06:41,901
partnership title from   
          "primary partnership" to

148
00:06:41,984 --> 00:06:44,487
"anchor partners" to...

149
00:06:44,570 --> 00:06:47,073
not put you second?

150
00:06:47,448 --> 00:06:50,451
I mean, I -- through, like,    
 context -- kinda understood that

151
00:06:50,534 --> 00:06:53,079
to be...happening.

152
00:06:53,162 --> 00:06:54,163
And I feel like   
                 Josh and I, like,

153
00:06:54,247 --> 00:06:57,082
didn't really discuss what   
      "anchor partner" means to us

154
00:06:57,125 --> 00:07:01,295
much, to, like, my own, uh, 
      disappointment a little bit,

155
00:07:01,337 --> 00:07:04,090
but I guess Josh would     
       reassure me that it, like--

156
00:07:04,173 --> 00:07:07,677
it's kind of like a primary 
         partnership but without

157
00:07:07,718 --> 00:07:10,054
the inherent hierarchy. 
                Or is there--

158
00:07:10,138 --> 00:07:12,390
I mean, I think I wouldn't     
 have-- I didn't ever describe it

159
00:07:12,473 --> 00:07:14,016
as similar to a          
        primary partnership,

160
00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:16,102
I think I said,          
        "Wow, we actually --

161
00:07:16,185 --> 00:07:18,855
based on our relationship     
      and how it has evolved --

162
00:07:18,938 --> 00:07:22,442
we actually prescribed way more 
   to relationship anarchy and the

163
00:07:22,525 --> 00:07:23,985
values of relationship anarchy,

164
00:07:24,068 --> 00:07:28,739
and those things are us creating 
    the rules of our relationship

165
00:07:28,823 --> 00:07:31,284
between us, ourselves."

166
00:07:31,367 --> 00:07:34,871
♪moody synth music♪

167
00:07:34,954 --> 00:07:36,706
[Josh kissing]

168
00:07:36,789 --> 00:07:40,376
♪♪♪

169
00:07:40,418 --> 00:07:43,087
In working with people that    
    are ethically non-monogamous,

170
00:07:43,171 --> 00:07:46,924
they organize themselves     
    differently on a continuum of,

171
00:07:47,008 --> 00:07:50,303
like, how much do they stay...

172
00:07:50,386 --> 00:07:53,931
loyal to some idea that    
       there's a primary couple...

173
00:07:54,015 --> 00:07:54,807
Right.

174
00:07:54,849 --> 00:07:57,852
[Orna] Versus what they    
      call "relationship anarchy?"

175
00:07:57,894 --> 00:07:58,519
Ah, they haven't...

176
00:07:58,561 --> 00:08:00,897
I haven't seen that word so far.

177
00:08:00,980 --> 00:08:02,315
As in "everything                 
   goes" versus...

178
00:08:02,398 --> 00:08:05,693
Not exactly           
     "everything goes," but, like,

179
00:08:05,735 --> 00:08:10,239
anything that smacks   
            of power and hierarchy

180
00:08:10,323 --> 00:08:11,866
is suspect.

181
00:08:11,949 --> 00:08:13,159
♪♪♪

182
00:08:13,242 --> 00:08:17,955
Josh is living with a       
        bunch of other people,

183
00:08:17,997 --> 00:08:21,876
and then Lorena lives in a    
     completely different place.

184
00:08:22,168 --> 00:08:27,340
Aryn, when she comes       
     into town, stays with Josh.

185
00:08:27,965 --> 00:08:30,885
Each of them have other lovers 
    and other people that they're

186
00:08:30,968 --> 00:08:33,346
involved with.

187
00:08:34,889 --> 00:08:37,725
And, by the way, Aryn       
      and Lorena are not lovers.

188
00:08:37,767 --> 00:08:39,268
[Virginia VO] I see.

189
00:08:39,352 --> 00:08:41,604
♪♪♪

190
00:08:41,687 --> 00:08:46,108
[Orna VO] I'm trying to wrap my   
    head around who my couple is,

191
00:08:46,150 --> 00:08:49,695
and then what           
         does this unit need?

192
00:08:49,779 --> 00:08:54,909
♪♪♪

193
00:09:04,418 --> 00:09:05,711
Mm.

194
00:09:06,212 --> 00:09:07,505
I left my list.

195
00:09:07,547 --> 00:09:10,675
[both chuckle]

196
00:09:10,758 --> 00:09:11,634
I got--

197
00:09:11,717 --> 00:09:13,010
The list of all the great things 
     you wanted to say about me

198
00:09:13,052 --> 00:09:14,804
-in there?             
         -No, I'm snitchin'!

199
00:09:14,887 --> 00:09:16,347
-[laughs]             
       -Of all the things that

200
00:09:16,389 --> 00:09:17,557
I gotta talk to    
              Orna about with you.

201
00:09:17,598 --> 00:09:19,350
[laughs]

202
00:09:19,433 --> 00:09:20,434
Such a hater.

203
00:09:20,476 --> 00:09:22,478
-Is it hate?            
               -Yeah.

204
00:09:22,562 --> 00:09:24,730
[both laugh]

205
00:09:24,814 --> 00:09:26,232
[Mitch VO] Snitch.

206
00:09:26,566 --> 00:09:30,444
"The baby's pampers, you know,   
   garbage needs to be thrown out.

207
00:09:30,528 --> 00:09:33,114
Did you clean the dishes?

208
00:09:33,197 --> 00:09:34,031
Clean his high chair?"

209
00:09:34,115 --> 00:09:36,867
And I'm going through a          
 list with you every week.

210
00:09:36,951 --> 00:09:40,121
If I don't explain to him that 
    these things need to get done,

211
00:09:40,204 --> 00:09:41,956
they don't get done,             
 they fall on my plate,

212
00:09:42,039 --> 00:09:43,124
and I have to now put             
   in the extra hours.

213
00:09:43,207 --> 00:09:48,004
There are certain things I do   
 fall short of in terms of, like,

214
00:09:48,087 --> 00:09:49,505
performing in           
         this relationship.

215
00:09:49,547 --> 00:09:51,173
Like what?

216
00:09:51,257 --> 00:09:53,718
[Mitch] Like, um,                
 anticipating needs.

217
00:09:53,801 --> 00:09:56,596
Like recognizing the        
   garbage needs to be thrown out,

218
00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,390
-for an example, and doing it.   
            -Whose needs?

219
00:09:59,432 --> 00:10:00,224
Hers.

220
00:10:00,266 --> 00:10:01,475
That's interesting...

221
00:10:01,517 --> 00:10:04,979
that the garbage is her needs...

222
00:10:05,021 --> 00:10:07,231
'cause it already puts            
 you in a position of...

223
00:10:07,273 --> 00:10:10,151
you're having to          
      respond to somebody else;

224
00:10:10,234 --> 00:10:11,027
it's not yours.

225
00:10:11,110 --> 00:10:13,904
Yeah, because I don't           
 feel a part of the home.

226
00:10:13,946 --> 00:10:16,449
Which I guess, in my mind,     
   that already captures the whole

227
00:10:16,490 --> 00:10:19,076
dynamic that    
                  you're here for:

228
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,871
in a way, that Elíana is        
 the one generating the needs,

229
00:10:21,954 --> 00:10:22,580
you responding,                   
 not responding,

230
00:10:22,622 --> 00:10:25,333
well, not well.

231
00:10:25,374 --> 00:10:26,626
That's actually a really      
       good way of putting it.

232
00:10:26,709 --> 00:10:27,543
I've never [chuckling]       
      thought of it like that.

233
00:10:27,585 --> 00:10:28,544
[Mitch] Yeah,                 
 'cause, I mean, um--

234
00:10:28,586 --> 00:10:32,048
But you're both trapped 
           already, just by that.

235
00:10:32,131 --> 00:10:33,007
[Elíana] Yeah.

236
00:10:33,090 --> 00:10:35,593
It's very exhausting for there   
 to constantly be that comparison

237
00:10:35,635 --> 00:10:38,512
of just, like, you know, how    
    things go when she's doing it

238
00:10:38,596 --> 00:10:41,015
versus how things are       
      going when I'm doing it.

239
00:10:41,098 --> 00:10:43,392
It's one of those     
           things where it's like,

240
00:10:43,434 --> 00:10:44,685
"Bro, I do this...

241
00:10:44,727 --> 00:10:47,063
-all the time by myself."     
           -[Orna] Mm-hm.

242
00:10:47,146 --> 00:10:49,523
"You can't figure         
          it the fuck out?"

243
00:10:49,607 --> 00:10:52,443
Like, it's frustrating,      
        because if I'm like,

244
00:10:52,485 --> 00:10:54,528
"Hey, I'm about          
         to start studying.

245
00:10:54,612 --> 00:10:56,322
You're good?

246
00:10:56,405 --> 00:10:57,281
You have to watch him."

247
00:10:57,365 --> 00:10:59,909
"Wait, wait, wait, before 
         you go, I'm just gonna...

248
00:10:59,950 --> 00:11:00,534
brush my teeth."

249
00:11:00,618 --> 00:11:02,495
I brush my teeth twice a day.

250
00:11:02,536 --> 00:11:03,412
[Orna] Mm-hm.

251
00:11:03,454 --> 00:11:06,749
So it's-- it's one of       
        those things where--

252
00:11:06,791 --> 00:11:07,917
But you just did it!

253
00:11:07,958 --> 00:11:08,751
[Elíana] What?

254
00:11:08,834 --> 00:11:09,960
I do it twice a day.

255
00:11:10,002 --> 00:11:12,004
-You just compared!        
          -[Elíana] Right!

256
00:11:12,088 --> 00:11:15,257
And-- and when you do it    
       in the way in which you do,

257
00:11:15,299 --> 00:11:18,469
it-- in a sense, it 
               comes off as if...

258
00:11:18,552 --> 00:11:21,097
"Well, why can't you do it 
        if I'm already doing it?!"

259
00:11:21,138 --> 00:11:24,266
But I'm letting you know that I 
 don't know he's able to do these

260
00:11:24,308 --> 00:11:27,728
things, or he's able to be good 
 by himself while I'm brushing my

261
00:11:27,812 --> 00:11:30,272
teeth, which is          
         why I'm asking you,

262
00:11:30,356 --> 00:11:31,899
"Can you do it?!"

263
00:11:31,941 --> 00:11:33,317
And the way you're         
      communicating it to me --

264
00:11:33,401 --> 00:11:35,152
the way in which    
               you just did now --

265
00:11:35,236 --> 00:11:39,657
is not a way in which I prefer   
 for it to be communicated to me!

266
00:11:39,740 --> 00:11:40,616
Do you understand 
                 what I'm saying?!

267
00:11:40,658 --> 00:11:41,951
So then how would         
       you want me to say it?

268
00:11:42,034 --> 00:11:44,036
Wait, but what do                 
   you understand?

269
00:11:44,078 --> 00:11:46,497
I'm understanding that me...

270
00:11:46,580 --> 00:11:49,709
highlighting [chuckles]      
    the fact that I can do it...

271
00:11:49,792 --> 00:11:50,668
-That you can do better.      
       -[Elíana] By myself...

272
00:11:50,751 --> 00:11:52,878
-Or better...           
      -That you can do better.

273
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:54,171
-[Elíana laughs]          
               -Mm-hm.

274
00:11:54,213 --> 00:11:55,840
Ugh, hold on,           
        lemme bring it back.

275
00:11:55,923 --> 00:11:59,176
Your highlighting that you can    
 do better is not having a good

276
00:11:59,218 --> 00:12:00,094
effect.

277
00:12:00,177 --> 00:12:00,803
Right.               
              [laughs]

278
00:12:00,886 --> 00:12:02,847
[Orna] That's                  
 what we're hearing.

279
00:12:02,888 --> 00:12:04,932
I'm not trying to say       
     that I could do it better--

280
00:12:05,015 --> 00:12:05,891
-But you are.           
   -[Elíana] That's not my point.

281
00:12:05,975 --> 00:12:07,268
-But you are. But you are.     
          -[Elíana laughs]

282
00:12:07,351 --> 00:12:08,602
-And y-- and y--          
   -[Elíana] That's not my point!

283
00:12:08,686 --> 00:12:10,062
[Orna] It doesn't      
        matter what you're trying,

284
00:12:10,104 --> 00:12:11,147
that's what you're doing.

285
00:12:11,188 --> 00:12:12,148
And when you were         
       explaining it to Orna,

286
00:12:12,189 --> 00:12:13,566
you said it in about   
             three different ways,

287
00:12:13,607 --> 00:12:16,527
in three different examples!

288
00:12:16,569 --> 00:12:17,445
Yeah!

289
00:12:17,486 --> 00:12:18,362
But this is how you communicate!

290
00:12:18,446 --> 00:12:21,699
But it's like, there's 
             an expectation there!

291
00:12:21,782 --> 00:12:23,325
-And-- and--            
         -Whose expectation?

292
00:12:23,409 --> 00:12:24,910
[Elíana] There is an 
              expectation there...

293
00:12:24,994 --> 00:12:25,828
Who?

294
00:12:25,870 --> 00:12:27,538
For him to be the adult in    
    the room when I am not around!

295
00:12:27,580 --> 00:12:31,208
Okay, let's build                
 a different, um...

296
00:12:31,250 --> 00:12:32,877
-math formula.           
           -[Elíana] Okay.

297
00:12:34,712 --> 00:12:37,006
The end result is...

298
00:12:37,089 --> 00:12:38,549
What do you want          
        the end result to be?

299
00:12:38,632 --> 00:12:40,384
For all the shit to get done.   
         [laughing] Like...

300
00:12:40,426 --> 00:12:44,388
Okay, we're gonna have to       
 negotiate on that end result,

301
00:12:44,430 --> 00:12:45,514
-but let's say...         
          -[Elíana laughs]

302
00:12:45,598 --> 00:12:47,016
"The important           
         shit to get done."

303
00:12:47,057 --> 00:12:47,808
[Elíana] Okay.

304
00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:51,061
I think what we're               
 learning here is that

305
00:12:51,145 --> 00:12:56,609
by using language where you're    
 saying "I can do it better..."

306
00:12:57,735 --> 00:12:59,195
-[Elíana] I don't say--      
         -"I need an adult,"

307
00:12:59,278 --> 00:13:00,279
-you're...             
     -I don't say these things.

308
00:13:00,362 --> 00:13:03,032
I don't say, like, "I can     
    do it better than you" and--

309
00:13:03,115 --> 00:13:05,075
Yeah, of course                  
 you're saying it.

310
00:13:05,117 --> 00:13:05,785
You are.

311
00:13:05,826 --> 00:13:06,869
[Elíana] I'm not     
             saying it explicitly!

312
00:13:06,911 --> 00:13:09,705
It doesn't             
       matter, we all hear it.

313
00:13:09,955 --> 00:13:10,664
We're all hearing it.

314
00:13:10,748 --> 00:13:13,459
[both laugh]

315
00:13:13,501 --> 00:13:16,587
So that method is not        
 gonna get you that end result.

316
00:13:16,629 --> 00:13:17,755
[Elíana] Okay, so what     
       will get me the end result?

317
00:13:17,838 --> 00:13:20,174
I don't know, let's hear.

318
00:13:20,216 --> 00:13:22,635
If you came to me,     
           and I said, "Hey, like,

319
00:13:22,676 --> 00:13:23,552
can you watch Law while 
            I go brush my teeth?"

320
00:13:23,636 --> 00:13:26,764
and you said,     
               "Oh, he'll be fine.

321
00:13:26,806 --> 00:13:29,266
Like, the electric toothbrush 
      will entertain him enough.

322
00:13:29,350 --> 00:13:31,811
Don't worry about it, you can do 
   your thing and he'll be cool,"

323
00:13:31,852 --> 00:13:33,145
I'd be like, "All right!"

324
00:13:33,187 --> 00:13:34,188
And I'd go brush my teeth.

325
00:13:34,230 --> 00:13:38,067
But you follow it up by     
    saying things that are further

326
00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:39,777
-condescending.          
           -Condescending?

327
00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:40,736
-Yeah.               
           -[Orna] Mm-hm.

328
00:13:40,820 --> 00:13:43,864
Like, "Why can't you be 
           the adult in the room?"

329
00:13:43,948 --> 00:13:45,407
-Yeah!               
          -[Elíana laughs]

330
00:13:45,449 --> 00:13:46,617
Do you understand?

331
00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:48,536
-"Why can't you be the adult?"   
         -I don't say that.

332
00:13:48,619 --> 00:13:49,954
-[Mitch] But you just said it!   
           -You just did.

333
00:13:49,995 --> 00:13:50,913
[Elíana] Okay.

334
00:13:50,955 --> 00:13:51,831
What you just said was "Why    
    can't you be the adult in the

335
00:13:51,914 --> 00:13:53,749
-room?"              
               -Right.

336
00:13:53,833 --> 00:13:54,708
And that's how you         
        typically say things!

337
00:13:54,792 --> 00:13:58,379
[Orna] Elíana, the   
              idea is to try to...

338
00:13:58,420 --> 00:14:01,715
have a different   
                 internal message.

339
00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:03,425
I understand that         
        you're frustrated...

340
00:14:03,467 --> 00:14:06,136
-[Elíana] Yeah.          
      -And that you want help.

341
00:14:06,178 --> 00:14:10,558
But you've developed, already, a 
   whole language -- a rhetoric --

342
00:14:10,599 --> 00:14:12,184
-in your mind...          
               -Mm-hm.

343
00:14:12,226 --> 00:14:15,271
That is, indeed, based on     
 frustration and on the idea that

344
00:14:15,354 --> 00:14:18,691
you can do better, Mitch is just 
   not functioning as an adult...

345
00:14:18,774 --> 00:14:19,775
Yes.

346
00:14:19,817 --> 00:14:22,528
[Orna] So...

347
00:14:22,611 --> 00:14:24,488
understandable...

348
00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:25,531
that you           
         developed that narrative,

349
00:14:25,614 --> 00:14:29,243
but it's not gonna get you -- 
             any of you --

350
00:14:29,326 --> 00:14:30,452
where you wanna go.

351
00:14:30,494 --> 00:14:31,662
[Elíana] Yeah.

352
00:14:31,704 --> 00:14:34,582
So how do we            
      reframe the whole thing?

353
00:14:34,623 --> 00:14:37,376
Let's do something radical here.

354
00:14:37,418 --> 00:14:39,712
Like, what if we change the       
 whole direction of things?

355
00:14:39,753 --> 00:14:42,882
'Cause right now, the     
      direction is still you want,

356
00:14:42,923 --> 00:14:45,634
and you...

357
00:14:45,718 --> 00:14:48,929
are somehow       
             responding to a want.

358
00:14:48,971 --> 00:14:50,848
Mm-hm, and...

359
00:14:50,890 --> 00:14:51,765
[Orna] Well, what do you want?

360
00:14:51,849 --> 00:14:54,685
Tell me what you    
               want with your son.

361
00:14:54,768 --> 00:14:58,439
I mean, I don't necessarily have 
 any expectations for him outside

362
00:14:58,522 --> 00:15:00,649
of, you know...

363
00:15:00,733 --> 00:15:02,776
raising him            
        to be a good person.

364
00:15:02,860 --> 00:15:05,070
-[Orna] Mm-hm.           
               -Um...

365
00:15:05,154 --> 00:15:07,740
I feel that, at          
       this point in his life,

366
00:15:07,823 --> 00:15:10,618
she does that best,

367
00:15:10,659 --> 00:15:14,163
and when he gets older,    
      he's going to need guidance,

368
00:15:14,246 --> 00:15:16,290
and at that point,   
              that would be when I

369
00:15:16,332 --> 00:15:17,416
step in as a dad and--

370
00:15:17,458 --> 00:15:19,877
[Orna] What age are you     
    thinking that is good for him?

371
00:15:19,919 --> 00:15:23,213
I don't know, probably around...

372
00:15:23,297 --> 00:15:23,964
middle school, high school.

373
00:15:24,048 --> 00:15:26,759
[Orna] Mm-hm.

374
00:15:27,176 --> 00:15:27,927
What do you think of that?

375
00:15:28,010 --> 00:15:30,346
[Elíana] Your son   
              needs you every day.

376
00:15:30,429 --> 00:15:33,974
It's the day-to-day things now   
 that will allow for those things

377
00:15:34,058 --> 00:15:35,768
to be possible.

378
00:15:35,851 --> 00:15:38,729
I was taught and            
 raised to believe that, like,

379
00:15:38,812 --> 00:15:42,942
raising a kid at this       
     age is the woman's domain.

380
00:15:42,983 --> 00:15:43,525
So--

381
00:15:43,609 --> 00:15:45,069
Can you say                  
 something about that?

382
00:15:45,152 --> 00:15:48,572
My parents, uh, they separated    
     when I was 12 years old.

383
00:15:48,614 --> 00:15:53,786
I had a stronger relationship 
        with my father as a kid

384
00:15:53,869 --> 00:15:55,871
than I did with my mom.

385
00:15:55,913 --> 00:15:57,581
When, you know, they        
      separated and, you know,

386
00:15:57,623 --> 00:16:00,542
he went his own way, I       
      was in middle school and,

387
00:16:00,626 --> 00:16:03,837
you know, he wasn't around, I   
 navigated the world on my own in

388
00:16:03,879 --> 00:16:06,382
a sense, because there were    
   certain things that I couldn't

389
00:16:06,465 --> 00:16:07,883
-speak to my mom about.      
               -Mm-hm.

390
00:16:07,925 --> 00:16:11,387
So I see that the         
         father's, I guess,

391
00:16:11,428 --> 00:16:12,846
"time to shine"...

392
00:16:12,888 --> 00:16:16,725
is at that age, because that's   
    the age I was where I felt I

393
00:16:16,767 --> 00:16:18,769
-needed that guidance.       
               -I see.

394
00:16:18,811 --> 00:16:21,772
So that's why you're              
 focusing on that age.

395
00:16:21,855 --> 00:16:23,857
[Mitch] Yeah, so 
                  I'm not saying--

396
00:16:23,899 --> 00:16:26,819
So maybe you're kind of taking   
    for granted the early years.

397
00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:30,239
I wanna be a dad   
                that is present...

398
00:16:30,322 --> 00:16:30,864
Mm-hm.

399
00:16:30,948 --> 00:16:33,367
And I don't really know

400
00:16:33,450 --> 00:16:36,829
how much impact I'm having     
      or not having right now.

401
00:16:36,870 --> 00:16:37,663
[Orna] Yeah.

402
00:16:37,746 --> 00:16:40,958
Because I'm not around       
     him enough to really know.

403
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,334
Right.

404
00:16:42,751 --> 00:16:45,379
Look, we have to stop,           
 but let's stay with this.

405
00:16:45,462 --> 00:16:47,715
I'm looking forward to       
     seeing how this plays out.

406
00:16:47,798 --> 00:16:48,674
[Elíana] All right.

407
00:16:48,716 --> 00:16:51,468
Do you wanna try to stay      
     at the house a couple days?

408
00:16:51,510 --> 00:16:52,469
That sounds like                  
 a good idea to...

409
00:16:52,511 --> 00:16:53,846
-[Mitch] Yeah!           
           -[Elíana] Okay.

410
00:16:53,887 --> 00:16:54,304
-Yeah!               
        -[Elíana] All right.

411
00:16:54,346 --> 00:16:56,056
Yeah.

412
00:16:56,140 --> 00:16:58,142
-Okay.               
            -[Orna] Good.

413
00:16:58,392 --> 00:16:59,143
[whispering] Thank you.

414
00:16:59,184 --> 00:17:00,644
You're welcome,                 
 [speaking Spanish].

415
00:17:00,686 --> 00:17:01,520
-Thank you so much.        
            -[Orna] Okay.

416
00:17:01,603 --> 00:17:02,312
[Elíana] Thank      
            you, have a good week.

417
00:17:02,354 --> 00:17:04,522
[Orna] See ya next week.

418
00:17:04,565 --> 00:17:07,608
♪grooving Latin music♪

419
00:17:07,693 --> 00:17:08,986
[Elíana]  Vamos.

420
00:17:09,069 --> 00:17:14,282
♪♪♪

421
00:17:34,970 --> 00:17:38,307
Most people who love you...

422
00:17:38,348 --> 00:17:40,017
fall in love with Tallulah.    
             [chuckles]

423
00:17:40,100 --> 00:17:40,768
Tallulah?

424
00:17:40,851 --> 00:17:44,813
Like, 'cause he       
         identifies as two-spirit.

425
00:17:44,897 --> 00:17:45,689
Yes.

426
00:17:45,731 --> 00:17:47,107
[Alexes] I don't know if        
 you wanna explain it better.

427
00:17:47,191 --> 00:17:52,404
Yeah, so I've always felt a    
   strong female spirit and energy

428
00:17:52,446 --> 00:17:53,989
-inside of me.           
               -Mm-hm.

429
00:17:54,073 --> 00:17:57,326
I was like, "Her                 
 name is Tallulah."

430
00:17:57,409 --> 00:17:57,951
Mm.

431
00:17:57,993 --> 00:18:01,914
-And then--            
          -When did she...

432
00:18:02,456 --> 00:18:03,332
-[Casimar] I mean...        
              -Emerge?

433
00:18:03,373 --> 00:18:06,335
-She had always been there.    
           -[Orna] Mm-hm.

434
00:18:06,418 --> 00:18:09,254
I was just able to         
          give her a name.

435
00:18:09,588 --> 00:18:13,258
Even though I don't know yet    
 how that plays into all of this,

436
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:17,054
you each told me, in     
         different-- a little bit,

437
00:18:17,096 --> 00:18:18,806
that you're...

438
00:18:18,889 --> 00:18:21,266
complex beings.

439
00:18:21,308 --> 00:18:21,934
Right?

440
00:18:22,017 --> 00:18:24,561
You have at least   
              two living in you...

441
00:18:24,603 --> 00:18:25,354
Mm-hm.

442
00:18:25,437 --> 00:18:29,108
You mentioned that 
                 you dissociate...

443
00:18:29,149 --> 00:18:30,484
Mm.

444
00:18:30,526 --> 00:18:33,570
-[Orna] So...           
    -Oh my God, that parallel...

445
00:18:33,612 --> 00:18:35,072
Yeah!

446
00:18:35,114 --> 00:18:36,698
So...

447
00:18:36,740 --> 00:18:42,162
there's a lot of different parts 
   of you trying to be understood,

448
00:18:42,538 --> 00:18:44,414
and maybe          
         contradicting each other.

449
00:18:44,456 --> 00:18:45,958
Pshoo!

450
00:18:45,999 --> 00:18:51,296
♪curious tender music♪

451
00:18:52,548 --> 00:18:56,927
My gender identity and      
    expression just kind of hit me

452
00:18:57,010 --> 00:18:59,471
when I learned          
          about two-spirit.

453
00:18:59,513 --> 00:19:03,142
We're Puerto Rican, and      
     the Taíno culture was super

454
00:19:03,183 --> 00:19:04,935
important to my dad.

455
00:19:05,018 --> 00:19:08,021
"Tallulah" means         
           "leaping water."

456
00:19:08,105 --> 00:19:11,066
I was like, "This is what I am!"

457
00:19:11,692 --> 00:19:17,114
[Orna] When Casimar described   
    to me this two-spirit thing,

458
00:19:17,156 --> 00:19:19,700
suddenly, I was     
             like, "Oh, thank you!

459
00:19:19,741 --> 00:19:21,451
Now I know             
          what's going on!"

460
00:19:21,493 --> 00:19:24,621
'Cause I felt this--        
           this Tallulah.

461
00:19:24,663 --> 00:19:26,498
Can you say how          
         you feel Tallulah?

462
00:19:26,582 --> 00:19:29,585
It's-- it's like you're   
        talking to one person and,

463
00:19:29,668 --> 00:19:31,044
all the time, I   
                feel behind him...

464
00:19:31,128 --> 00:19:33,755
-Ah...               
 -The presence of another entity.

465
00:19:33,797 --> 00:19:36,216
And then, when he said           
 the two-spirit, I'm like,

466
00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:38,510
"Oh,                      
 thank goodness, yes!

467
00:19:38,594 --> 00:19:40,679
Tallulah!"             
             [chuckles]

468
00:19:40,762 --> 00:19:43,140
[Casimar VO] Up until I      
        was 10, I was "Casi."

469
00:19:43,182 --> 00:19:44,558
Casi is my nickname.

470
00:19:44,641 --> 00:19:47,644
And I went up to Mr.        
      Frieberg, and I was like,

471
00:19:47,728 --> 00:19:50,397
"Hey, they keep          
        calling me 'Gay-si.'

472
00:19:50,439 --> 00:19:52,149
Like, they're rhyming       
        "gay" with "Casi..."

473
00:19:52,191 --> 00:19:53,066
[Orna] Mm-hm.

474
00:19:53,150 --> 00:19:56,195
"It's not very clever, but     
     it's hurting my feelings."

475
00:19:56,278 --> 00:19:57,112
[Orna] Mm-hm.

476
00:19:57,154 --> 00:19:59,448
"Can you please start       
    calling me by my birth name,

477
00:19:59,531 --> 00:20:01,533
-which is Casimar?"        
               -Mm-hm.

478
00:20:01,617 --> 00:20:05,996
And, like, there was,         
 like, this immediate shift...

479
00:20:06,038 --> 00:20:09,333
of, like, "Casi," and       
       then there's "Casimar."

480
00:20:09,374 --> 00:20:10,000
[Orna] Mm-hm!

481
00:20:10,083 --> 00:20:11,793
And "Casimar" is, like, this...

482
00:20:11,835 --> 00:20:16,006
protector, this          
    defender, he's the wordsmith.

483
00:20:16,048 --> 00:20:16,757
[Orna] Mm-hm.

484
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,593
I needed to defend         
      myself when I was a kid.

485
00:20:19,676 --> 00:20:21,762
'Cause that was at         
        10; by the age of 12,

486
00:20:21,845 --> 00:20:23,222
I was homeless,

487
00:20:23,305 --> 00:20:24,932
and I had a whole         
      'nother hurdle of issues,

488
00:20:25,015 --> 00:20:27,226
so Casimar was just          
 getting stronger and stronger

489
00:20:27,267 --> 00:20:29,561
-and stronger.           
               -Mm-hm.

490
00:20:29,603 --> 00:20:32,648
And relating that over to     
     Alexes, this person that I

491
00:20:32,731 --> 00:20:36,735
-created to defend me...      
           -[Orna] Mm-hm.

492
00:20:36,818 --> 00:20:40,739
I'm using him in          
        all the wrong places.

493
00:20:41,615 --> 00:20:43,659
How is it affecting you?

494
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:44,910
If we're both...

495
00:20:44,952 --> 00:20:50,415
kind of reverting to this,     
   like, protective personality...

496
00:20:50,499 --> 00:20:51,416
[Orna] Mm-hm.

497
00:20:51,458 --> 00:20:56,713
That we've had since children,    
     that personality is like,

498
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,048
[laughing] "I           
       don't care about you,"

499
00:20:58,131 --> 00:20:59,716
-you know? Like...         
           -[Orna] Mm-hm.

500
00:20:59,758 --> 00:21:01,093
Like, "I'm               
 protecting my own," you know?

501
00:21:01,176 --> 00:21:04,972
So I wanna hear                
 more of your history,

502
00:21:05,013 --> 00:21:06,765
like get the background.

503
00:21:06,807 --> 00:21:10,227
I was raised by my mom, um...

504
00:21:10,310 --> 00:21:11,770
I have a little sister.

505
00:21:11,812 --> 00:21:13,355
I kind of, like,          
          raised my sister.

506
00:21:13,397 --> 00:21:16,275
Like, there was a lot of, like, 
   us-parenting-ourselves kind of

507
00:21:16,316 --> 00:21:18,402
situation.

508
00:21:18,443 --> 00:21:19,903
Um...

509
00:21:19,945 --> 00:21:25,325
and, uh, then           
       around like nine, um...

510
00:21:25,867 --> 00:21:30,414
my mom's uncle's,         
         um, husband, um...

511
00:21:31,832 --> 00:21:34,126
started to sexually abuse me.

512
00:21:34,167 --> 00:21:35,085
Your mom's uncle's husband...

513
00:21:35,127 --> 00:21:38,171
[Alexes] Yeah, my                
 great uncle, yeah.

514
00:21:38,255 --> 00:21:40,590
[Orna] Started          
     sexually abusing you at nine?

515
00:21:40,632 --> 00:21:42,301
Yeah.

516
00:21:43,969 --> 00:21:48,849
So, I now understand that that's 
   where my dissociation started.

517
00:21:48,932 --> 00:21:50,350
-[Orna] Mm-hm.           
               -Um...

518
00:21:50,392 --> 00:21:52,227
I started cutting.

519
00:21:52,269 --> 00:21:53,562
[Orna] What age?

520
00:21:53,645 --> 00:21:55,272
Um, probably like         
         almost immediately,

521
00:21:55,355 --> 00:21:58,525
so, um...

522
00:21:58,567 --> 00:22:01,278
So did you...

523
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,946
try to get any help from anyone?

524
00:22:02,988 --> 00:22:06,658
Could you tell anyone?       
            Did you try?

525
00:22:06,742 --> 00:22:11,788
I think around 11, um, my        
 aunt, who lived in Florida,

526
00:22:11,830 --> 00:22:13,123
kind of noticed      
          that I had become, like,

527
00:22:13,206 --> 00:22:15,167
a different person.

528
00:22:15,250 --> 00:22:16,335
Like, I wasn't, like,           
 talking, I wasn't, like,

529
00:22:16,418 --> 00:22:19,921
my smiley self, um...

530
00:22:20,005 --> 00:22:22,674
so she confronted         
        my mom at that time.

531
00:22:22,716 --> 00:22:23,467
Saying "Something's wrong?"

532
00:22:23,508 --> 00:22:27,012
Yes, and then my   
                mom cut her off...

533
00:22:27,054 --> 00:22:27,596
[chuckles]

534
00:22:27,637 --> 00:22:29,097
and I could not speak to her.

535
00:22:29,181 --> 00:22:32,100
Meaning she             
 absolutely did not wanna know.

536
00:22:32,142 --> 00:22:33,393
[Alexes] Yeah.

537
00:22:33,769 --> 00:22:36,188
And that-- nothing              
 happened, that was it.

538
00:22:36,271 --> 00:22:37,105
-Um...               
         -Nothing happened?

539
00:22:37,147 --> 00:22:40,317
[Alexes] Nothing 
                   happened, uh...

540
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,111
I didn't go over anymore,     
    but they would still come...

541
00:22:43,195 --> 00:22:47,407
to the house, and abuse      
     still continued in the ho--

542
00:22:47,491 --> 00:22:49,159
in my house.

543
00:22:49,201 --> 00:22:50,118
What?!

544
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,956
So at some points, I was just   
   one room away from my mom or my

545
00:22:55,123 --> 00:22:56,458
sister or...

546
00:22:56,541 --> 00:23:00,962
or my uncle, um, when abuse    
     was happening in my bedroom

547
00:23:01,004 --> 00:23:02,381
or in the hallway.

548
00:23:02,422 --> 00:23:04,674
Um...

549
00:23:04,758 --> 00:23:07,302
That's really unforgivable.

550
00:23:07,469 --> 00:23:11,056
My mom was also very        
     physically abusive at home,

551
00:23:11,098 --> 00:23:13,183
so...

552
00:23:13,266 --> 00:23:14,184
Just nowhere to go.

553
00:23:14,226 --> 00:23:18,188
-No, I didn't have any control. 
            -[Orna] Yeah.

554
00:23:18,271 --> 00:23:18,522
At all.

555
00:23:18,563 --> 00:23:20,107
Um...

556
00:23:20,190 --> 00:23:22,859
which I think was why       
      the cutting was helpful.

557
00:23:22,901 --> 00:23:25,529
-Yeah.               
    -[Alexes] Not helpful but...

558
00:23:25,612 --> 00:23:28,657
Yeah, I left when I was 16?

559
00:23:28,698 --> 00:23:30,242
Um...

560
00:23:30,450 --> 00:23:33,203
It was-- it was a               
 really big deal, um,

561
00:23:33,286 --> 00:23:36,832
to sever the                
 relationship with my mom.

562
00:23:36,873 --> 00:23:38,667
[Orna] Mm-hm.

563
00:23:39,376 --> 00:23:41,044
It was really hard.

564
00:23:41,128 --> 00:23:42,921
I mean...

565
00:23:43,213 --> 00:23:46,007
to this day, she          
         still, you know...

566
00:23:46,049 --> 00:23:50,387
Since I've cut her         
      off, I've seen her, like,

567
00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:52,597
a handful of times?

568
00:23:52,889 --> 00:23:55,225
Like, he's met her 'cause     
    my cousin was married and...

569
00:23:55,267 --> 00:23:58,311
-Yeah, it was wild.        
               -Yeah.

570
00:23:58,395 --> 00:24:00,814
Like, at some point, like,     
       I didn't even know her

571
00:24:00,897 --> 00:24:01,898
and I'm like...

572
00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:05,402
She's his mom, so I'm like-- I   
   know all of this at this point,

573
00:24:05,485 --> 00:24:07,070
I'm, like, trying         
          to be respectful,

574
00:24:07,112 --> 00:24:09,739
and she's like, "He's             
 not well, he's sick,

575
00:24:09,823 --> 00:24:11,992
he's making all of this up."

576
00:24:12,033 --> 00:24:14,953
And, like, I just stopped         
    talking to her, like,

577
00:24:14,995 --> 00:24:16,413
-immediately.           
              -[scoffs]

578
00:24:16,455 --> 00:24:19,249
I was just like, "Aaaand         
 nice to meet you, goodbye."

579
00:24:19,332 --> 00:24:21,418
-And then we went out.       
               -Yeah.

580
00:24:21,460 --> 00:24:23,378
It was wild.

581
00:24:23,545 --> 00:24:26,548
Like, once I had          
      control over my own life,

582
00:24:26,631 --> 00:24:28,592
I never was letting go of that.

583
00:24:28,633 --> 00:24:29,676
Mm-hm.

584
00:24:29,718 --> 00:24:32,262
[Alexes] And I was    
            always very ambitious.

585
00:24:32,304 --> 00:24:34,556
I wanted to...

586
00:24:34,598 --> 00:24:38,143
like, prove that   
                 I was not broken.

587
00:24:38,226 --> 00:24:40,979
-[Orna] Mm-hm.           
               -Um...

588
00:24:41,688 --> 00:24:46,359
You somehow found your       
       way out of this maze of

589
00:24:46,443 --> 00:24:48,153
abuse and betrayals.

590
00:24:48,236 --> 00:24:49,863
[Alexes] Yeah.

591
00:24:50,947 --> 00:24:52,991
I'm proud of you.

592
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,912
It's, like, weird to hear that. 
          [chuckles softly]

593
00:25:00,207 --> 00:25:04,503
Well, I'm very                 
 upset, moved, and...

594
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,507
carrying this for both of you.

595
00:25:10,175 --> 00:25:12,010
Thanks.

596
00:25:12,052 --> 00:25:13,929
-This is us!            
           -[Orna] Mm-hm.

597
00:25:14,012 --> 00:25:16,348
[chuckles]

598
00:25:18,099 --> 00:25:23,438
♪moody ambient music♪

599
00:25:24,814 --> 00:25:30,362
There's this overwhelming pull 
    that Casimar and Alexes have

600
00:25:31,154 --> 00:25:33,573
on my psyche,

601
00:25:33,615 --> 00:25:34,616
which, of course, it's good --

602
00:25:34,658 --> 00:25:38,495
good to care about the people   
      we work with and-- and...

603
00:25:38,578 --> 00:25:40,705
But this is something more.

604
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:42,958
But there's some more here.

605
00:25:42,999 --> 00:25:43,959
[Virginia] Yeah.

606
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,293
Like, they're sitting     
      there as their adult selves,

607
00:25:45,377 --> 00:25:48,421
but I think I        
         immediately pick up on...

608
00:25:48,505 --> 00:25:52,217
the children in the room.

609
00:25:54,010 --> 00:25:57,138
I'm a little worried that,    
    when I get kind of pulled into

610
00:25:57,180 --> 00:25:59,266
-a case like this...       
        -[Virginia VO] Mm-hm.

611
00:25:59,307 --> 00:26:01,268
[Orna VO] With that        
        level of intensity...

612
00:26:01,309 --> 00:26:02,185
[Virginia VO] Yeah.

613
00:26:02,269 --> 00:26:05,689
[Orna VO] It's kind of,      
      um, an indicator of, like,

614
00:26:05,730 --> 00:26:10,610
savior fantasies that       
     are getting provoked in me.

615
00:26:10,694 --> 00:26:15,865
♪♪♪

616
00:26:35,969 --> 00:26:40,432
♪It's not enough, baby♪

617
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,854
♪Let's keep it          
            hush tonight♪

618
00:26:47,522 --> 00:26:51,776
♪You lost the touch, baby♪

619
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,324
♪I need to see          
           it in your eyes♪

620
00:26:57,365 --> 00:26:58,366
♪See it in your eyes♪

621
00:26:58,450 --> 00:27:03,872
♪Can't take            
           this much, baby♪

622
00:27:05,123 --> 00:27:09,252
♪I need to see          
           it in your eyes♪

623
00:27:09,294 --> 00:27:11,504
♪See it in your eyes♪

624
00:27:11,588 --> 00:27:16,760
♪♪♪

625
00:27:22,724 --> 00:27:27,103
♪It's been so tough lately♪

626
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,484
♪I need to see          
           it in your eyes♪

627
00:27:32,525 --> 00:27:35,695
♪See it in your eyes♪

628
00:27:35,779 --> 00:27:40,950
♪♪♪